First of all, this post will probably anger some people. I would apologize, if I were sorry, but the truth is I'm really not. If you know me at all, you'll know I'm not very good at sugarcoating things. I say what I feel and if you don't like it--well then, you don't. That's ok. This was actually inspired by my cousin, Kimberly's, facebook post. She and I have very different views on pretty much every issue in the world. It's gotten more obvious as we've gotten older, but the fact remains we're very different people. We still get along fine (at least I think we do), but we disagree on Facebook quite frequently so much so that I imagine she sighs when she sees a notification of my posts.
Having said that....one of her recent posts brought up the subject of children--more specifically the fact that spanking, in her opinion, is a discipline method that shouldn't be a first resort and one that she will not use in public. The discussion continued into the fact that spanking doesn't make more well-behaved children...yada..yada...yada...
Here's my take. I don't have children, but I was once a child and I can tell you that I received exactly three spankings in my lifetime. I can tell you when I received them and why I received them. I can also tell you that I knew better than to ever do what I did to get those spankings again. That's how spanking should work. You shouldn't have to go around spanking your children every day. You should be able to discipline your children and have them connect the discipline to their behavior. If your children are misbehaving in public and you want to remove them from the situation, go for it, but is it really teaching your children anything to prove to them that their behavior dictates the family's agenda.
To give children an easy out by saying "they are just kids" is bizarre to me. I was with my mother at doctor's appointments, grocery stores, hospitals, and a variety of other public areas for most of my childhood and I NEVER considered acting the way I see children acting. My mom would have brought my world to a screeching halt and I knew it. She never dreaded taking me places. She commented about that countless times. I can remember an incident in Target when we struck up a conversation with a young mother in line in front of us. She was pulling her child off a rack and lamenting the fact that she "had to bring him with her today." When she left Mama looked at me and said, "I never hated bringing you with me. You knew better than to even think about acting that way."
I'm not advocating parents beating on their children in public because they giggled too loud, but if your child is a public nuisance, it's unfair. Their right to be in public does not trump my right to have a quiet, peaceful dinner. It is your responsibility to keep your children from infringing upon the rights of everyone else around you.
I have three dogs...how would you feel about me letting them out in the morning at about 5 am so they could bark and wake up the whole neighborhood? I'd be willing to bet that more than a few people would be unhappy...but why? They're just dogs..and dogs are supposed to bark.
whew, I feel better....
Been there with the dogs...we were annoyed, but just let them bark (Boots has barked in the middle of the night since he's an outside dog, but it was because their was a possum in his house).
ReplyDeleteAnyway, back to the subject...I do think for the most part...we agree (believe it or not). You didn't say anything that I am opposed to. I think your next to last paragraph, we were just disagreeing on when it is appropriate to spank and when it's not. Maybe you disagreed with more that I said, but maybe you misinterpreted what I was saying. I can promise you that a child being spanked in the middle of the store or restaurant will NOT make your dinner more peaceful. Removing that child from the said place, will and the parents can (or should) handle it from there. I knew the possibility of being spanked was there, but I (somehow) avoided it. My boys have never been spanked in public although I've been tempted at times, and I think that works for us. I don't think spanking (or not) determines how well behaved your children are...if it did, everyone would spank. I don't assume parents who spank in public are abusive, but I always wonder if it is the wisest choice that does more than just make annoyed shoppers/diners feel better. Hopefully this doesn't make you feel any less better, but I had to post a rebuttle:)
I should also say that growing up, you were always an exceptional shopper. I do, however remember hiding from my mom in the store when we got bored. I'm still a wimp shopping and it appears that Penn and Jude got the gene too because they can't make it very far without complaining. I do try to avoid shopping trips with them...but maybe if I have a girl.....;)
ReplyDeleteI welcome your comments. Let me explain a prior situation and maybe you'll understand more clearly. Olive Garden with Mom...several years ago (clearly I don't let things go easily). A group of mothers giggled over how cute it was that their two children were crawling around on the floor going under different diners tables. Mind you, these were not children that were of crawling age. It wasn't cute...it wasn't endearing. It was annoying.
ReplyDeleteAt work, parents bring their children in all the time and allow them to mess with items on my desk without ever even speaking to them. I just think parents (and I'm not talking about you specifically) need to teach their children how to act in public and if that means discipling them in public, that's what they have to do.
For the record, it doesn't matter to me at all how a parent chooses to disciple a child when they are acting out in public. As long as I see a parent trying to do something, I have sympathy. I'm not a monster...really. :)
I SO remember the day before I had children seeing a child go crazy in the store and thinking, "I will never have a child who behaves that way in public!"...then along came Jac!!! Lol
ReplyDeleteIf Carmon had been the first child...I'd probably still be saying that.
Carmon's personality is really starting to pop now and I have to say, I think she acts like me. I can shop with her for hours and she's fine.
I never remember getting out of hand while in public and I can't say it was because I was afraid of what my parents would do to me. Any spankings I ever got, were probably for fighting with KIMMI at home. Don't get me wrong, my parents were exceptional...but more than that, I think it was just the fact that I was a fairly laid back kid that made it easier on them...lucky!
And then there's Jac. Maybe the most high-strung kid I've ever seen. And not due to my parenting, or lack thereof. I can't even tell you how many places we've had to leave because of his tantrums. Things are better now that he is a little older, but things were pretty miserable there for a while. I even remember his throwing a fit at breakfast one Saturday while Cam was in Iraq and Uncle Terry told me that he needed a spanking. If only he knew and if it were only that simple [...sarcastic laugh]. Wait...that's like a whole blog post right there.
Moving on along...
The deal was, yes he misbehaved, yes I disciplined him (weather other people thought so or not, but at the end of the day, if I needed to go grocery shopping, I had to take him with me and pray for a peaceful trip. As rude as it sounds, I had no other choice, if people were inconvenienced and annoyed by my ummm...spirited???...child, then they would have to deal with it for 15 minutes, until I could get out of there and restrain him (no really) in private. Parents that I've seen who "try" to discipline in public, make empty threats, and spanking their child in front of all creation (believe it or not) does not give off the appearance that they have things under control. It makes them look crazy and irrational, and it makes me way more uncomfortable than the initial incident that started it.
Don't let me mislead you, I wasn't out to ruin dining experiences of childless customers. In those situations, we left and took care of things in the car or outside. I'm just saying, sometimes parents are forced to take their kids some places because that is their only option. Not everyone has a babysitter and sometimes you have to break down and get groceries or whatever, with a child who isn't behaving like you did when you were young. After all, if it is a public place, you have to deal with people and situations that aren't ideal, hope that they leave, or you are free to go. I'm sure we've aggravated our fair share of unsuspecting customers, but I finally realize, there's sweeter than the sound of a screaming child...THAT DOESN'T BELONG TO YOU!!! . My attitude sure has changed a lot thanks to my bipolar son...LOL.
Like I said before, things are much better than they were before, but I can't say it was the spankings that made the difference. I noticed a huge difference after he had tubes in his ears. If things didn't start changing, I was about to throw a tantrum of my own!!! It's true..."kids will be kids" sometimes, but we it have to deal with it when it isn't our own.
Sorry, that wasn't a comment, that was a soapbox!!
ReplyDeleteThere are several things I want to say.
ReplyDelete1) I never meant for parents to start beating their children at the table in the middle of a crowded restaurant. I simply meant that allowing a child to behavelike a lunatic in public only to handle it in the privacy of your own home was unfair to everyone else as it subjected them to your child's tantrum while you essentially did nothing....even if you were going to do something later. *Note when I say you, I'm not actually saying *You*. This would be one of those collective you's they always talk about.
2) I understand that parents have to take their children places sometimes, so I can totally understand a child being unruly in a grocery store because let's face it...who really wants to go there????? What I don't understand is a parent that chooses to take their child out to a nice restaurant and then allows them to behave however they want regardless of how it impacts everyone else's experience.
3) I firmly believe spanking works. Twenty years ago, spanking wasn't the issue it is today. Twenty some years ago, you didn't hear of a child having ODD. You didn't see children with shadows in classrooms. Childen didn't want to go to the office. Why? The office had a paddle....parents had paddles and children knew that they knew how and when to use them.
4) I'm sure many people believe my opinion is based on the fact that I don't have children, but I honestly believe that has very little to do with it. Children are a product of what they are taught. If a child is taught what is appropriate, they will respond in kind. If a child cannot act appropriately in a restaurant, you shouldn't take that child to a restaurant. To suggest that the people that child is annoying should be the ones that have to is just ridiculous to me.
5) Allowing a child to act a certain way because they are "just kids" gives them way too much power. They are not the center of the universe. Allowing their behavior to dictate whether or not you leave a restaurant or other public place just seems incredibly sad to me. I fully support stepping into the restroom, or outside to take care of a situation, but I cannot see how leaving the place and going home teaches a child anything other than the fact that their opinion is far more important that it is (or should be).
6) I've been taking a lot of business classes due to my major and it seems strange to me that a parent could rationalize that when their child is causing a disturbance in a public place, that the other patrons of that establishment should have to leave if they are annoyed. I wonder how the managers of said establishments would feel about that? They should be forced to lose paying customers because some parents can't control the behavior of their children????? I certainly don't think so.
I don't usually involve myself in these types of posts, but here goes...
ReplyDeleteFirst, I am going to sort of reiterate what Karen said. I NEVER thought that I would have a child that misbehaved in public, and I was extremely judgmental of people who's children did. I remember telling Karen at least a million times when we were dating that "if that was my kid, I would have snatched him up 15 minutes ago."
I'm sure this type of attitude stemmed from the fact that I was spanked as a child...all the time... I was raised to remain silent AT ALL TIMES while in public. So, if this was the way I was raised, it must be right....right???
Once Jac came along, I was thrilled to have such a "rough and tough" boy, but was surprised to learn how differently he is wired. Initially, I applied my behavior management techniques the way I was taught. I learned quickly that they simply did not apply. The harder I spanked, the harder he resisted. While we were in Jacksonville, Karen and I quickly learned that we had to start approaching the way we discipline differently, mainly without spanking.
As we have learned to manage him (and we are still learning), we have become better parents. Now, spanking is more effective with him, but is still not always the solution. I am one of the parents you are referring to that will handle the situation in the privacy in my own home, after leaving a public place. I can assure you, we when come home that we are not popping popcorn and blowing bubbles. He is constantly reminded why we had to leave and what his consequences are. Trust me, he dislikes leaving a place more than I do. This doesn't mean he dictates the family agenda; it lets him know we are serious about what we expect from him in public.
I have always been conscientious of how people viewed Jac in public. I'm sure I have been too quick at times to remove him from the situation, but I don't like to be embarrassed. However, I find myself sympathizing less and less with other patrons of a business, but only because I take Jac to places that are acceptable for children. If you (the collective you, of course) don't like to visit places where there might be misbehaving children, limit yourself to shopping online and eating at fine dining restaurants. Public is simply that...public. Anything goes. And for the record, I notice more adults misbehaving than children, but that's another issue.
I have also taken a lot of business classes, and if I have learned one thing about managing people, it's that you can't generalize them as a whole. People respond to different methods, just the same as children. Saying that spanking works and implying that it works for all kids is like saying Tylenol will cure every ailment. It just doesn't.
I would also have to disagree with your thoughts on the reaction of managers that lose annoyed customers. Businesses are tending more and more to families. Losing one annoyed customer, but gaining a family of four simply equates to higher revenue. No need for caring about the feelings of customers.
I know you think that your opinion will stay the same whether you have children or not, but I can say from personal experience, that's not necessarily the case.
Don't knock it til you try it :)
Hi Cam! I'm honored that you chose to respond...even though I can see we will just have to agree to disagree on several matters. :)
ReplyDelete1) I still firmly believe that spanking works. It may not work in every situation..but I still believe it works.
2) I rarely frequent casual dining establishments because I prefer not to eat in the midst of screaming, crying children. At malls and grocery stores, I expect that children will be there, but I still think parents should at least attempt to exercise some form of control over them.
3) I can respect your opinion that leaving the public place and dealing with the issue in your own home is best. I have no issue with that really. My issue is with parents that just sit there, allowing their child to act however they want without doing, or attempting to do, anything at all.
4) I absolutely agree that adults misbehave as much as children. I've come to the conclusion that as a whole people can be difficult to tolerate.
5) I still completely disagree with your opinion regarding managers of businesses. Yes, a family can bring in revenue to a business, but when that family is causing such a disturbance that couples walk in, look around and walk out, I think they've just lost their profits. I'd also be willing to bet that a couple coming in for a nice meal is spending just as much...if not a little more than a family with kids. Young families are paying more attention to a budget usually and children are eating off a kid's menu...if they've ordered them their own meal at all.
6) I would fully support a restaurant that exercised a "child-free" night and I would frequent it quite often. I don't dislike children, but I like to see them behaving as if someone at home is paying attention to their behavior. I'm not talking about them acting like silent robots--I just mean a general sense of knowing how to act in public and around people. I've never seen Jac act like he's running wild...maybe I've just been lucky. :)
7) I can't say for sure that my opinion would change, but I can say that I highly doubt it would. I've got friends that are mothers. I've been in town with their children many times and I've seen them attempt to misbehave. It didn't go well for them. It also didn't happen again. I would venture to guess that there are a lot of parents who agree with me (maybe even a couple within our family) but none of whom will be willing to enter into this little debate. :)